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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
71
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Posted - 2014.07.22 20:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
It's well known that many ppl play with different windows simultaneously logged on, in windowed mode ofcourse. My monitor's max reslution is 1440x900, consequently, the window's size is even smaller. And around 1/3 of it now taken by some obnoxiously-flashy, useless panel, which single purpose is to... show the chosen blueprint. Tnanks, but my vision is not so bad yet. It has to be reduced in size at least 2-3 times.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
73
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 22:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
I just can't believe my eyes.. Please tell me this is some kind of error and will be fixed soon. Before Crius I've invented several capital t2 rig BPCs. I used a decryptor (Occult Proccess) and managed to get them to very nice ME levels. It was ME -1. Now all this BPCs are at ME-9%, and quantity of materials needed to manufacture them is HORRIBLE. It is 20-30% greater than what I have on them right before Crius (IPH tools still shows my old resource requirements, so I'm shure about it). So producing them is no option now, as it would be more profitable to just sell blue salvage needed on the market. So, you basically ruined all my hard job of creating these, they now only worth to trash them, no one will buy this junk.
I also have a bund of t2 Small Nozzle Joints BPCs. Before Crius they required exactly of 1 unit of 3 types of t2 salvage to produce - and to achieve that I used quite expensive decryptors I bought from markets. Now all of them require 2 units of salvage. Is it how transition should work? Screw it then!
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
73
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 22:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ydnari wrote:For some reason CCP decided that whilst they were going to keep ME/TE on one side of zero (yay), they inexplicably chose to make all of the numbers negative. 
All my nozzle joints t2 BPCs now have ME-8%, and they require 2 units of each of 3 kinds of salvage to produce. Before Crius they required only 1 unit of each kind.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
73
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Posted - 2014.07.22 22:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Maria Bellafemme wrote:
As for the increased material costs, I think all t2 BPs have new, higher material costs (invention no longer results in BPCs with material costs less efficient than an un researched BPO.) this includes owners of T2 BPOs
Correct me if I've got you wrong. Do you imply that increase in material cost was added just to counterbalance change in ME calculations, so resulting material cost after-Crius would remain the same? Than it's not the case - I clearly see that the same BPC that requred 78 Intact armor plates to produce just before the patch (all my skills already included in calcualtions) now require 90. Ninty! If it's not for some kind of bug in how values are displayed, then those BPCs are of no use, at least for long times to come, because I'm sure others created a tons of those rigs beforehand and will sell them under old price, exactly like in that old incident with t2 ships and extra materials.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
74
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Posted - 2014.07.22 23:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:
i believe show info on a bpo does not take its ME into account anymore (and fixing that might save some devs a lot of grief)
I hope it really is. But, even if it would take it into account, it still -9%, so instead of 90 plates I would have got ~82 plates. Still not so close to 78 which before-Crius BPC had.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
75
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 00:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
DeODokktor wrote:
They added the Waste to the Base, and now you get Savings!...
Pizza Hut has a speshul, 2 pizzas for $10.. So 2 of them cost you $10.
next week that speshul is gone, But if you buy 2 pizzas (worth 7.50 each) you get 1/3 off.. You pay $10
Your getting roughly the same thing (output wise) that you were getting before...
Now, for those who say "but outputs are different"... Yea they are.
In the OLD days you had Round(Base*Waste), Now you have Roundup(Base*Savings).. So the "Change" there wasn't the standard, but simply a "Roundup" command now instead of a "Round" command.
Which kind of rounding up will transform the number of Intact Armor Plates required for production from 78 to 90? I still hope desperately this is some display bug and at least ME level didn't factoring in those numbers atm.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
75
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 08:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:
If only there was a filter option....
The filter button is absolutely needed too. Not only for BPCs, but for Installations/Systems tab. So you could filter out lowsec/nullsecs, for example, or Systems with load reaching some treshold.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
77
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Posted - 2014.07.23 12:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
From Patch notes for Crius 1.1
Quote:Blueprint show info now correctly reflects the current ME and TE levels.
What this was supposed to mean? My Capital Trimark Armor Pump II BPC still shows around 15% greater materials requirments (despite being an ME-9% one) than it showed right before Crius landed.
Here what it was before (I invented it using Occult Process so it had ME-1):
Interface circuit: 90
Intact armor plates: 78
Nanite Compound: 60
Here what it is now:
103
90
69
I don't see any sane reason while actual material requirments for rigs should be raised by 15%. So it's either some display bug, or badly made transition from old to new values.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
77
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 13:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Meytal, thats not about some little discrepancy. Lets do some math.
Here are basic material requirments for Capital Trimark Armor Pump II as they shown in bluepring info now:
Interface circuit: 113
Intact armor plates: 98
Nanite Compound: 75
2xR.A.M. units
Here what they were (I getting the numbers from ISK per Hour tool, IPH) for a basic t2 BPC with ME-4 (those also shown already modified by now gone Material Efficiency skill, IPH still use old calculations and, I hope, all material requirments too):
Interface circuit: 113
Intact armor plates: 98
Nanite Compound: 75
1xR.A.M. units
So, they are the same.
Here what it was for a maximum ME achived through invention before Crius (ME -1):
Interface circuit: 90
Intact armor plates: 78
Nanite Compound: 60
1xR.A.M. units
You can easly check for yourself that difference between old basic t2 BPC and old most saving t2 BPC roughly equals to 20%.
But now we can cut material costs by -10% max.
For what?
Just for the sake of those flashy round 10 number? Our new inexpirienced players strive hard to remember ME level numbers greater than 10? We basically losing 10% from our hard earned t2 BPCs for that? Why ten, and not 20 levels? 20 is nice and round number too. If new t2 BPCs had 20 ME levels it would have roughly the same material requirments as before when it maxed.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
78
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 14:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Meytal wrote:
I may not necessarily like everything about the industry update, but I do think the repercussions of adjusting the blueprint materials and scrapmetal reprocessing that we are facing now is completely worth revamping the manufacturing process to eliminate the klunky waste and extra materials and greatly simplify the calculations, though. We just need time to let the market settle at its new values.
I don't have any objections to production and research paradigm's change. I just pointing the fact that someone's over-obsession with unification adds additional havoc where it could be avoided. Tell me, for what good reason we can't have separate leveling range for t2 BPCs, going from from 0% to 20% (they could keep 0-10% range for regular BPOs/BPCs if it needed), to keep old material requirments in place? To keep old effectivness of decryptors (which now became much more useless than even before)? Can you poing it out? Of course, aside from the fact you will need a couple of additional brain cells to hold these two ranges in memory simultaneously, and that it's not totally unifed one, nice-looking and all round-up system. This pursuit for good and flashy picture which looks nice on surface despite it ruins more vital stuff under the hood starts to inflict too much disaster to merely shrug it off.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
78
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Posted - 2014.07.23 16:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Meytal wrote:
As for multiple ME calculations, what benefit does it offer for the added code complexity of maintaining multiple systems?
Well, if you are employed in software development you for shure have to be familiar with "don't fix what works perfectly" metarule. Invention economy have worked quit good for years, there was no need to change it so much. And it's not about maintaining different system, the system stay the same - t2 BPCs' ME reduces the amount of materials under the same formula regular BPC/BPO's ME does, and decryptors change ME/PE under some rules. It just the maximum size of this reduction what is different for t2 BPCs. Look, the formula is "Base_mats - ME*Base_mats" is the same, only "ME" changes here, it has greater upper limit for t2 BPCs. Is this compicated too much?
Meytal wrote:
I mean, sure, I'm all for lowering my production costs, but lower production costs will mean lower final market prices, so we're just back where we started.
At least 2 consequences can be named right away:
1) Those who created a huge stockpile of those t2 goods beforehand now may start to control respective markets, forcing the price which will be on brink of profitability for others, but still profitable for them - like in this old incident with Extra materials, which lead to many spaceships' production became unprofitable for years. And yet they have done the same mistake again now.
2) It basically will lead to raising final cost of t2 goods to end users(after old stocks have sold out), and only for the sake of good, clean picture, nicely rounded to number of 10 in some BPC's field. You don't account for impact it will cause on playerbase other than industrialists.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
78
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 18:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Meytal wrote:Ray Kyonhe wrote:(arguing just to argue) Have fun!
Deliberately closing your eyes on arguments laid out by me won't make them dissapear.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
78
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Posted - 2014.07.23 19:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Akira Menoko wrote:I have a collection of capital ship BPOs that before Crius were all researched to have no waste, which took about 3/4 of a year to do depending on the blueprint. Now that Crius is out these BPOs have a lot more waste and in order to get rid of it I have to spend another 3/4 of a year or so researching it away. Not to mention the high installation cost to do such a job. Now in the EVE Industry - All you want to know dev blog made just a week ago, it's stated that Quote:The guiding goal with this translation is "no blueprint gets functionally worse" i.e. the materials needed for a single run should be the same or less after the transition.
BPOs at least it can be reserched back again to the material requirments they were before Crius. With current t2 BPC mechanics all t2 BPCs got 10% more materials requirments forever, without ability to reduce them to pre-Crius numbers at all.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
78
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 23:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Galmalmin wrote:
I say it in RL(tm) and I am surprised (I don't know why I am, but there it is) I am having to say it in my Science Future Virtual Reality.
In that future every capsuleer ship still has its humanoid crew, needed to maintain its systems. Humans don't work at assembly lines this days, they manage and reprogram them, and keep an eye on all automated systems, not allowing them to cross some bounds. Now take into account this two facts:
1) There are relatively small number of POSes in New Eden. Like, a couple of dozens per system. Per system, inhabited by billions of human beings. You can safely suggest that those engineers allowed to work on stations and POSes are brightest of the bright, and such people cost money.
2) POSes get destroyed on regular basis - even in empire space. It's clear that those inhabiting them can't leave them or save their lifes by switching off the shield and surrendering (there is simply no such mechanic in place, only some capsuleer with sufficient rights can switch off the field, POS can't surrender on its own). Either because they are so loyal to their master (and such loyalty comes with huge price, mostly measured in isks), or they just can't do that (and that means while agreeing to work here they effectively sign a death contract - and want generous payment for that; like, why they will work for you on POS, risking their lifes, when they could work in almost total security of some empire station's factory?)
Looks pretty logical now, isn't it? But the size of this payments is a real issue.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
80
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Posted - 2014.07.24 19:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Xela Kcaneoh wrote:
Way wrong. You just said that humans manage assembly lines nowadays. We're talking about the future, where humanoids are not needed to manage or maintain machinery. There is no legitimate reason why the ships / POS couldn't be maintained by robots, droids, nanobots, A.I., whatever. In WH space we fight Sleepers, ancient machines that have reconstructed and maintained themselves for millenia (thousands of years). We have collected their kibbles'n'bits for a good long while now. We have the technology, we can rebuild him.
I just said that you should read game's lore, if you haven't did it yet. It's by vision of game world's setting writer that ships have crews in Eve, not just me speculating about this. It is how this world of future imagined by its creator.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
80
|
Posted - 2014.07.25 01:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mara Kell wrote:After further investigation about the BPO transition to Crius i would like to hear from a Dev, how the picture i have linked is consistant with "no blueprint gets functionally worse".
I would love also to get answers how my t2 BPCs can be percived as "functionally the same" if they actually now require 10% more in materials. And why bringing materials levels on ALL BPCs/BPOs to 10% at once is SO important, that it will justify rising prices on many t2 goods by 10% for ALL players, when simply rising ME cap from 10% to 20% on t2 BPCs could roughly preserve their past material requirments, while still allowing to use the same new calculation methods as in case of others post-Crius BPCs.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
80
|
Posted - 2014.07.25 21:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Galmalmin wrote:
One example of many... back when the NYX was "da bomb", all alot of people could do was whine to CCP about the disparity of the NYX. However, some (and I was not an active participant in this, just in a corp that participated in it) came up with a way to combat that ship when it Hot Dropped somewhere and started to wreak havoc. The strategy derived by players involved specific types and numbers of ships being deployed there to kick that NYX's ass. It worked, NYX's were starting to become irrelevant as a surprise weapon.
However, due to the whining in forums and threats of unsubscribing, the NYX was nerfed. The time and effort by players to figure out a way to combat that sucker... wasted.
So, basically your example only shows, that only with team of highly determined and highly professional and well-trained players - which is rare and limited resource in Eve - that beast could be defeated. So, it's actually was overpowered and majority of players couldn't do a thing against it.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
94
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Posted - 2014.07.26 13:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
21 pages, yet not a single answer from any CCP stuff in the thread.
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
94
|
Posted - 2014.07.26 15:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
George Gouillot wrote:
You still don't get that this will be compensated through the market? And with more people ragequitting, it will most likely be overcompensated over time. The players who buy those ships to get them exploded will pay for it.
Yea, totally no need to be concerned about all these people now paying more for the same stuff because certain someone just loves round numbers. Totally no need to be concerned about those who prebuilt those modules for many months/years ahead while it was less costy in materials, and now will be controlling markets undercuting prices.
All is totally okay.. for those certain people. And of course it so great to have round numbers everywhere. Like everyone says, Eve is a game about numbers. Round ones, preferably.
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